vendredi 4 février 2011

Metaphysic debate with Redmond Weissenberger, a sympathizer from the libertarian Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada


This is a debate we had with M. Weissenberger, after the publishing of our text "Révolution Citoyenne en Égypte et Tunisie : Il faut exporter la révolution en Afrique et vers l'Asie." :

  • Redmond Weissenberger All of these countries have been explicitly socialist since the 60's

  • Révolution Citoyenne If you call this socialism, yes. But it is truely fascism.
    We have wroted a text about these "fake socialist" :

  • Redmond Weissenberger Italian style Fascism is a type of socialism - "Corporatism"

    the NAZIs were pure socialists.

    Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    C'mon! I though we had this descussion last time!
    This is closer to social-démocracy than socialism. Fascism and social-démocracy both use the State for different reasons (one for workers, the other for corporations). But true socialists, TH...EY WANT TO DESTROY AND GET RID OF THE STATE. Most like the libertarians... If you can't make this distinction, then I think it is useless we debate any longer.

  • Redmond Weissenberger How would you get rid of the state by giving it unlimited powers over the economy?

  • Révolution Citoyenne The economy will be ruled by the citizens. If the State doesn't have any economic power, it will not influence the economy at all. I don't understand what you don't get in this. Aren't you a libertarian?

  • Redmond Weissenberger
    Yeah but you were coming up with some ideas like "everyone will have the same wage" etc. Etc. You would need a coercive state to impose that.

    What if a bunch of citizens got together and formed a corporation that imported cheap goods from ch...ina? It sounds like you would need trade barriers for your "citizens" who would enforce them?

    Would there be taxes?


  • Révolution Citoyenne
    ‎@Redmond : If citizens want to buy goods from China, they are welcome. I don't understand where the problem is. But when our revolution will be over, the workers from China will get the same salary than the workers here. So there will be n...o more distursion. The laws of the markets will be the same, but the economic situation will be ballanced. No more economic domination! And of course, NO trade barriers, No taxes of any kind. But the corporations will need to leave their financial books open and public, and their profits will be redistributed with all the humans, since their work needed the efforts and the knowledge of the whole humanity. That'is the REAL liberalism. And that's why we called ourself the liberal-egalitarist.

  • Redmond Weissenberger
    But what if someone wanted a greater salary, or wanted more goods and or services than someone else?

    Maybe a nicer house, a big library, a big expensive tv.

    You talk about "workers" as if there is one big blob but different workers have skills and different abilities.

    How would you recognize and compensate someone who was able to complete a task faster than someone else?


  • Révolution Citoyenne
    What would justify a better salary than someone else?
    If you want more goods, you can build some or spare you money to buy it later. But what justify that a person gets more goods, more power or more liberty than another one?

    If you want a bi...g and expansive house, buy it with a group of person. We all have some things we really love (books, tvs, etc.) but we need to choose what is really important for us. We can't have everything and leave nothing to others.

    "workers have skills and different abilities". That is exactly why there is NO justification to give a different salary to someone than someone else.

    The person who works faster will get more social and work reconessance. The person who work slower might be good in something else? He will be FREE to work in any task that he wants. NO MORE ECONOMIC SLAVERY! If he can't interact with the society, why should we blame him? Who are we to make this person suffer for his whole life? As long as he does he's "social working time", I think he should be respected like the others since we cannot judge if he's acting is good or not for the humanity. Only diversity is important for a race to perdure. Capitalisme uniforms everyone, destroying the diversity. We must destroy capitalism's domination over human and nature.

  • Redmond Weissenberger Capitalism and the free market encourages diversity and the division of labour.

    I can gain more goods if I provide something that many others want.

    You are saying that is wrong?

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    Capitalism encourage the division of labour, but not diversity.
    Look, we almost have all the same goods than chineese people! This would be unimaginable only a few years ago...

    You can gain more goods if the whole society builds more of them.... This way, your income raise and the price goes down.

    You say "I can gain more goods if I provide something that many others want". This is true in our world, but what if I find out there is oil on my land. Alot of people needs it. But what in the world would justify this oild belongs to me? Would it be fair I get rich this way and could the last day? The use of oil is a human knowledge, it belongs to humanity!


  • Redmond Weissenberger ‎"human Knowledge"???

    Actually only certain humans know how to make use of oil.

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    ‎"only certain humans know how to make use of oil", but you need the work of all of them to get the oil and get it rafined into gas. Look, a human is a historical product (I hope this is clear in english). You cannot deny the fact that they... needed the work of many workers to build all the machenery to exploit the oil. It is a social work, not the work of a single men or few of them. They also needed the alphabet, the writing and the reading knowledge wich are part of the human heritage. They needed the numbers and probably many mathematic formulas wich belong to Pythagoras. They also used the metal moulage and casting and ground drilling knowledge. All of THESE ARE HUMAN KNOWLEDGE. Did they pay a copyright to the progeny of Pythagoras? Did they pay any fee to the human heritage? Of course not, they couldn't afford it! They used the human knowledge and social work to build what they have done, so it mostly belongs to the human heritage.

    The innovative will gain the privilege to manage and take care of what they have done. If it is good for the humanity, they should be proud and they will be gratified by the social interactions. All of this society is based on the individual reputation and TOTAL free interaction. The REAL liberalism is economically ballanced, you must admit this.

  • Redmond Weissenberger Yeah but you can't force someone to do anything... If you are to be "liberal"

    So someone who had particular knowledge will and should be able to name their price for using that knowledge in a productive manner.

  • Redmond Weissenberger
    ‎"The laws of the markets will be the same, but the economic situation will be ballanced."

    Markets only exist because there is imbalance.

    If everyone was the same, and had the same needs, desires, etc, there would be no such thing as an

    there needs to be differences

    Human cooperation is different from the activities that took place under prehuman conditions in the animal kingdom and among isolated persons or groups during the primitive ages. The specific human faculty that distinguishes man from animal is cooperation. Men cooperate. That means that, in their activities, they anticipate that activities on the part of other people will accomplish certain things in order to bring about the results they are aiming at with their own work.

    The market is that state of affairs under which I am giving something to you in order to receive something from you. I don't know how many of you have some inkling, or idea, of the Latin language, but in a Latin pronouncement 2,000 years ago already, there was the best description of the market — do ut des — I give in order that you should give. I contribute something in order that you should contribute something else. Out of this there developed human society, the market, peaceful cooperation of individuals. Social cooperation means the division of labor.

    The various members, the various individuals, in a society do not live their own lives without any reference or connection with other individuals. Thanks to the division of labor, we are connected with others by working for them and by receiving and consuming what others have produced for us. As a result, we have an exchange economy which consists in the cooperation of many individuals. Everybody produces, not only for himself alone, but for other people in the expectation that these other people will produce for him. This system requires acts of exchange.

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    Even in a total liberal world, I hope we will force everyone to respect the integrety of the other and that some laws will exist for that, like 'you will not kill someone'. This is forcing some one, right. You are restrincting his liberty, ...but we all agree that it is okay this way, right?

    If someone have some particular knowledge, he is free to share it or not, but selling it is a nonesens. Or if he does, the profit must belong the the human society. We will vanish the self profit!

  • Redmond Weissenberger create a "new socialist man" eh?

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    ‎"Markets only exist because there is imbalance." How can you say that? The market exist only because there is things that people build that other might want. The market is only the application of the law of demand and offering.

    Why are you ...talking again that "If everyone was the same"? WE ARE NOT THE SAME AND WE WILL NEVER BE. That is why we need a FREE market! So people can buy what they want, they way they want.

  • Révolution Citoyenne This is not 'NEW SOCIALISM", it is only modern marxism

  • Redmond Weissenberger What if they want SUVs, Mcdonalds and english language music?

  • Révolution Citoyenne Read Marx, Engels, Lenine or any TRUE marxist and it is always the same analytic. Only the way of implementing it the the real world changes.

  • Redmond Weissenberger So you are for everything we have today, just everyone should have more money?

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    Everything we have today? NO NO NO! All different!
    No more state, no more tax, no more labor union, no more boss.
    What is similar in that?

    What we ask is that canadians have the SAME salary than Haitians. What we ask is that all humans on eart...h get the same gratification for they're social work. What we want is to vanish the world's capitalism domination. If we take all the richness that humanity create and divide it by the number of terrans, we could offer a salary of more than 1000$ per months to every of them! Women, men, childrens and old people, ALL OF THEM ON THE WHOLE EARTH. And you can be sure that this way, you would eliminate all of pauvrety and military campains since these comes from economic distabilisation. Of course, in this kind of world, the poor coutries of today would be able to produce mutch more richness, wich would raise the whole terran's salary.

    Presently, 85% of the whole planet suffers from the world's economic system. It must change and we are the ONLY credible alternative!

  • Révolution Citoyenne It is late now, I must go. I hope we can continue this later.

  • Redmond Weissenberger Hmmm - who would pay this "salary"? most of the problems in the third world stem from trade barriers and protectionism.

    People sewing clothes in thailand for consumers in Canada is a good thing.

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    Why who would pay this salary? I don't understand.
    I think you are trying to make something really simple be really complicated.

    All of the social profits go into a BIG social bank account wich no one can access. 1 time per month, all of thes...e profits are divided, by a computer, by the number of terran we are on earth and make the deposit to any of them.

    No one take care of this. Only computers. But all of this must be 100% public.

    Révolution Citoyenne

    ‎"People sewing clothes in thailand" might be a good thing for YOU!
    Talk to the thiland people, they are happy to get a work to live, but they do not love the conditions of their work and of course, they don't like to be 'forced' to work mor...e than 60 hours per weeks to get less than 100$ per months. After that, talk to the canadian workers who worked in the clothes industry. They're salary went down, and that when they didn't completely lost their job. So, how can you say that "People sewing clothes in thailand for consumers in Canada is a good thing"? Exept for you of course...

    I am so sad to see that even in the 21th century, people accept slavery like that!

  • Redmond Weissenberger
    It is good for the Thai people because it brings wealth to them and their citizens.

    As well, the people who work in those factories are able to save money, gain skills, and work towards a better future.

    The country of Thailand suffers because... of barriers to trade.

    I have been to china - the people are doing far better now that they have access to the global market.

    We benefit because the cost of goods becomes lower.

    Everyone is a consumer. If shirts were still made in Canada, they would be far more expensive.

    The people who were sewing shirts in Canada are now doing something else.

    Some might be making more money, some might be making less.

    It is unbelievable that in this day and age you stand against people being allowed to work hard to make their lives better

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    WHAT ?! wealth ?!? WTF?
    It's like if you were saying that slave masters are good for the slaves because they offer them free food and a place to sleep! C'mon! You must be realistic, a full human emancipation is always better! These 'modern s...laves' work HARDER than you and me, they should at least get the same salary as us, in Canada!

    Of course it is better than it was in China, I have no doudp.
    If the shirts were made in Canada and would be more expansive, there would be less wastefulness (we really over-consum), the shirts would be more ecological (since less transportation and all this stuff) and it would provide work for canadians and let them create THEIR OWN CLOTHS, like canadians really want them (artistically). Like I said, capitalisme destroys diversity.

    "The people who were sewing shirts in Canada are now doing something else."? What? Working into a McDonalds? Ho no, maybe they are selling the shirts made by the chineese? At a much less salary, of course!

    There is always more people doing less money, and this is WORLWIDE, not only in Canada. This is also a monopolised capitalism's consequence.

    I am not standing "against people being allowed to work hard to make their lives better", I just don't think they should work more to make someone else richer. I don't want people to be slave anymore, I want them to do what they always wanted. I want them to acheive their child's dream. We all had some, even the poor people who don't seem to have some today....

    Redmond Weissenberger

    Capitalism does not destroy Diversity - Like I said, I have been to China, they have a full range of consumer goods, all different from the ones they have here.

    Cost of living is much lower in Thailand.

    "Their own cloths"? sounds to me like y...ou don't like the international division of labour.

    Mcdonalds? I went in there to buy some food a while ago, and most of the employees were young.

    the only ones who were older were the managers.

    you can do very well in sales.

    You think working in a factory is a great job? go work in one - I bet most people would be happier working in sales than sitting over a sewing machine for 8-10 hours a day.

  • Révolution Citoyenne
    Exactly! Thank you. Factory work is a hard job, you are right! And on the other hand, WE "can do very well in sales" because we have money here and some people exploit this by selling shirts 400% the value they really have. And why would an...other human would need to work 12-14 hours per days or more (because it is NOT 8-10 hours in the world's sweatshops) to make YOUR cloth, when a child selling the same cloth in our malls is paid 1000% the salary of the one who makes the damn cloth? In the same time, the world's factory workers have hard time to eat and to have a place to live. Can't you see YOU and I are the slave's masters? Can't you see this situation is not far from antiquity's slavery system?

    When I said "Their own cloths", I wanted to mean that if the shirts are made here, their design and production process really have more chance to be like the canadians really are. Instead, fashion uniforms everything and it is now (for most of the people I know) hard to get some cloth like they would want it. I think it's getting pretty like the U.R.S.S in the 70s...all uniformed.

4 [ C O M M E N T A I R E S ]


Yanick Toutain a dit…

Le changement de nom de blog va poser des problèmes

1° à Wikio (ils en ont déjà un en stock)
2° à Google...
3° sans doute à beaucoup d'endroits où vous serez en conflit avec l'autre.... (qui date de longtemps)

A. Franc-Shi a dit…

J'ai l'intention d'affronter ces "problèmes". ;)
L'adresse du blog reste la même, seul l'entête a changé. Je ne vois pas où est le problème.

Anonyme a dit…

"Fascism and social-démocracy both use the State for different reasons (one for workers, the other for corporations)."

What a simplistic argument.

The fascists also used the state to "benefit the workers", their aproach was the key difference.

"But true socialists"

No true Scottsman Fallacy

A. Franc-Shi a dit…

Look, I know it is simplistic, but that was the goal. Do you deny that fascism is corporatist (firsly defend the interest of the corporations) while social-democracy mainly finance public services mostly accessible for workers (health, education, povrety programs, etc.). Of course, you may try to tell me that financing corporations will help workers to get some jobs, maybe we could expand the debat on this matter?

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